[wxPython-dev] 20071113 test build uploaded

[Kevin Ollivier]

Hi Robin,

On Nov 14, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Robin Dunn wrote:

> Kevin Ollivier wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> Some quick notes from testing:
>> Overall:
>> - I think the new XRCEd and Editra additions help give the toolkit  
>> a considerably more modern feel. But one thing that stuck out with  
>> me is that they come separate from the main package and are part of  
>> Demos and Docs, although these are really neither. My personal  
>> experience has shown that most new users like one big download with  
>> everything they might need on it, and I can't really see people  
>> wanting to stick with old versions of the demo, or editing tools  
>> when they upgrade wxPython. I think our two packages should just be  
>> for those who want the whole package - incl. demos, tools, etc. -  
>> and those who just want the library and nothing else, personally.
>
> The code for the tools actually is installed with the lib, along  
> with the command-line launchers.  It's just the shortcuts on Windows  
> and the mini App bundles on OS X that are installed from the 2nd  
> file.  The original intent behind splitting them up was to have a  
> way to provide just the what is needed for wxPython runtime without  
> the stuff that only developers would be interested in.  I think that  
> is still valid, although somewhat less so since most people are  
> using py2app and py2exe these days for distributing apps.  Also, on  
> Windows I'm able to have just one installer for the docs-demo-tools  
> that can be used with any of the py-version/unicode/ansi runtimes,  
> so that saves some space and up/download bandwidth.

My main point is that we have these nice new & improved tools, but the  
package naming suggests that it (and thus wxPython) doesn't come with  
development tools at all. It's mostly just a branding thing IMHO; for  
example, consider "wxPython Runtime"  and "wxPython Toolkit (or SDK?)"  
vs. "wxPython" and "wxPython Docs & Demos". I'd expect to find things  
like XRCEd and Editra in an SDK or Toolkit, but I wouldn't expect to  
find them in Docs & Demos, or at least, I wouldn't expect to find any  
"real world" applications in that package.

Regarding breaking things up, I don't really have a problem with doing  
this in general, but I've always believed in optimizing for the  
primary case, and accommodating others. Right now, our approach is  
geared towards people who like to grab each piece they need separately  
and assemble them. For example, the case you describe with non- 
developers sounds like a deployment scenario where each user is  
expected to install his/her own software stack. While I'm sure such  
cases exist, I wonder if that's very common, because once you add  
Python itself and some add-on modules to that software stack, manually  
running a bunch of installers to set things up seems very inefficient  
for anything but very small groups of users.

OTOH, as a developer, I always download both the runtime and Docs &  
demo packages, and I'll bet most people do, so making them one  
download would save me a bit of time. Also, I've several times run  
across people on the lists and on IRC who don't even realize the demo  
exists. (I've pointed a few users to it myself.) So the common case  
I'd personally optimize for is existing, and new!, developers who just  
want to see what the toolkit can do and get going with minimal fuss.  
Of course, I'd still accommodate developers who want a runtime  
package, but like the wxPython-dev package, I might make it a bit  
further down, saying something like "Runtime only download" or  
something.

Thanks,

Kevin

>
>
>> - What would really rock is a 5 minute screen cast showing how to  
>> use Editra and XRCEd together to create a wxPython Hello World  
>> application. Not being familiar with XRCEd myself, I kinda felt my  
>> way around it but I would have felt a lot more comfortable with a  
>> step-by-step here's what to do sort of thing.
>
> Good idea.
>
>> XRCEd:
>> - Really like the new XRCEd control browser. As a Mac user, though,  
>> I instantly tried to drag and drop controls into the treeview (and  
>> later the live preview)... ;-) Any way we can get that, at least  
>> the former, to work? (Of course, I've had my problems with DnD and  
>> treeviews in the past....)
>
> I think that Roman had DnD working in the old version.  Perhaps it  
> just hasn't been ported to the new version of the app yet.   
> Hopefully he will respond to your suggestions soon and will let us  
> know.
>
>> - Also, the nice toolbar icons and Control browser icons causes  
>> some contrast with the old-style treeview icons. IMHO it'd be great  
>> if we could use the screenshot-like icons for those too.
>> - It'd also be nice if clicking on checkboxes, etc. caused  
>> immediate changes in the preview. It seems changes are reflected  
>> only when you switch tabs, but being able to make a change and see  
>> it's effect immediately helps people explore the various options.
>
> This is also something that was recently added to the old version of  
> the app.  I expect that it can also be made to work in the new one.  
> (I miss it too.)
>
>
>> - Any reason the icons couldn't be 32x32 on Mac? :-) IMHO that size  
>> looks better on Mac than 24x24.
>
> I agree.
>
>
> [More good stuff snipped for now...]
>
> -- 
> Robin Dunn
> Software Craftsman
> http://wxPython.org  Java give you jitters?  Relax with wxPython!
>
>
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